Subj:	#1(2) TRAVELLER digest 325
Date:	95-06-22 21:57:18 EDT
From:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com

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			    TRAVELLER Digest 325

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) RE: emp and the like	by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
  2) BTW:	by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
  3) Re: Big Lasers and SF Influences (Td#323)	by Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
  4) EMPs	by Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
  5) Radiation hardening	by Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
  6) Re: TRAVELLER digest 323	by aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
  7) req: alternative combat systems	by "Peter H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
  8) REALLY Exotic Materials....	by CyHiggin@aol.com
  9) Re: Arbitrary limitations	by CyHiggin@aol.com
 10) Re: HPGs	by CyHiggin@aol.com
 11) Re: Arbitrary limitations	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 18:57:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: emp and the like
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950621185533.4619A-100000@linda.teleport.com>

  I'm of two minds on that one.
	According to the rules; any hit by a particle accelerator 
resets all non FB computers.
	But on the same token, you could say it would only have any 
effect if it penetrates the hull, otherwise the EMP pulse would not even 
go past the ships armor.
	I guess it comes down to the GM and what he thinks of it in terms 
of hard science and game balance.
	

bri


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 18:59:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: BTW:
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950621185758.4619C-100000@linda.teleport.com>

  Could you post rules for how you figured out Gravitronic Rifles?
danke
 also, what about tractor rifles.(a * represents a emmiter, imagine the 
barrel going into the screen, the *'s on the end)
                    *
                   * *
                    *
 System would get incredible velocity if the rules are the same for small 
emitters.

 bri


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 00:03:32 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Big Lasers and SF Influences (Td#323)
Message-ID: <9506220403.AA11418@qrc.com>

George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com> writes:
> Subject: Big Lasers (Was the Battle Rider thread...)
> I haven't seen any 50*TL power output limit on Lasers in FF&S;
> someone have a page / rule # citation?

It's a "house rule" strongly recommended by the members of the GDW-Beta
list, not an official rule.  Without it, there's no point in any type
of starship weapon (except possibly missiles) _other_ than lasers.  IMHO,
the _lack_ of some size limit on lasers was a serious error/ommission
on the part of the authors of FF&S (and unfortunately, the laser design
sequences were not available to the GDW-Beta playtest group before the
publication of FF&S, so it appears that this section of the rules were
never playtested prior to official publication).

Any given "spinal" or bay weapon (such as a PA-gun or Meson-gun) can be
replaced by a laser of the same input energy that delivers more damage
to the target at greater ranges, and with a smaller, lighter weapon
that only requires one crewmember to operate it.

> Without it, and I havent' seen it so I assume it's not mandatory
> (or perhaps nonexistent? 8-), lasers which hit with full effeiency
> out to 80 hexes are easy, and gigajoule to tens of gigajoule lasers
> will punch holes in anyones battleship.  Lasers in that class range
> fit on sub-10kton warships.

Right.  Which means that for "official" tournament play, the best designs
are going to be built around large, long-ranged lasers.  For a campaign
that resembles Traveller (either in the classic version, or even the
campaigns described in T:TNE), however, the referee should come up
with _some_ reason not to allow such weapons into the campaign.

A limit of laser power output to 50 * TL Mj is suggested.


Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen) asks:
> Subject: Refs:  What are your science fiction influences?
>      What are your major influences from the realm of science fiction?  
>      Cite films, novels, games or whatever.

I'll be interested to see the responses to these, myself!

In any case, my "major" SF influences would have to include (off the top
of my head, anyway - I could build a more comprehensive list from home):

The "MUST" (short) list would be: Starship Troopers (Heinlien), Space Patrol
(Smith), Dorsai! (Dickson), The Lion Game (Schmitz), Ensign Flandry
(Anderson),
The Mote in God's Eye (Niven/Pournelle), Chanur's Venture (Cherryh),
Hammer's Slammers (Drake), The Forever War (Haldeman); Star Wars, Star Trek.

Books:
Robert A. Heinlien	Nearly everything he wrote, but in particular:
			_Starship Troopers_, _Have Spacesuit Will Travel_,
			_The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, _Time for the Stars_,
			and _The Past Through Tomorrow_ (Future Histories)
Larry Niven		Lots; the ones that come to mind at the moment:
			_Ringworld_, _A Gift from Earth_
Arthur C. Clarke	Nearly all his fiction, but in particular:
			_Rondezvous with Rama_, _Fountains of Paradaise_
Isaac Asimov		Nearly all his fiction, but in particular:
			The _Foundation_ Trilogy (ignore the later books)
Edward E "Doc" Smith *1	Everything!  In particular: _Skylark_,
_Triplanetary_,
			_First Lensman_, _Space Patrol_
Gordon R. Dickson	The Childe Cycle (the Dorasi books)
George O. Smith		_Venus Equilateral_
James Schmitz		_Legacy_, _The Lion Game_, _The Witches of Karres_
Anderson and Dickson	_Earthman's Burden_, _Hoka!_
Poul Anderson		_Ensign Flandry_, _Gateway_
C.J. Cherryh		All of the _Downbelow_ and _Chanur_ books.
Niven and Pournelle	_Lucifer's Hammer_, _The Mote in God's Eye_
David Drake		_Hammer's Slammers_
Thorinn Gunnarson	_Starwolves_
Joe Haldeman		_The Forever War_

Television:
Star Trek (all)
Battlestar Galactica (ignore Galactica: 1980)
Buck Rogers (ignore the third season)

Movies:
Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi
Star Trek (ignore the first movie)
Buckaroo Banzai
The Heavy Metal Movie
The Wizard of Speed and Time *4
The Rocketeer *4
Raiders of the Lost Ark *4

Anime: *2
Starblazers/Space Cruiser Yamato
Captain Harlock/My Youth in Arcadia
Tank Police
Dirty Pair
Lensman *3


Notes:
*1 Steve Jackson Games has a "GURPS Lensman" suppliment in print, which
is an _excellent_ role-playing suppliment based on E.E. "Doc" Smith's
Lensman stories.  This suppliment is the reason I bought GURPS.  :-)

*2 Yes, I know that anime is (technically) movies or television, but I
think that the genre is different enough that it warrants a separate
listing.

*3 Theoretically based (without permission!) on "Doc" Smith's works, this
is really a whole different story.  Not bad, but not what "Doc" wrote.

*4 Yes, I know these aren't (strictly speaking) SF, but I'm including them
anyway, because they're applicable anyway.

It's worthwhile to note that Marc Miller has read a _lot_ of science
fiction (I believe Loren commented "... more books that I've seen in
one place before ..."), and I'd be _very_ interested to hear Marc's
answer to this question.  It seems to me that Classic Traveller
borrowed heavily from many of the "hard" SF classics.

wildstar@quark.qrc.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          "It's Science Fiction, if, presuming technical 
                           competence on the part of the writer, he genuinely
                           believes it could happen." --- John W. Campell,
Jr.
/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 07:59:54 -0700
From: Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: EMPs
Message-ID: <fe985c30@MailXFER.DMCWAVE.COM>

     >>Only if the electronics aren't hardened (i.e., non-military).  Since 
     weapon systems are, by definition, military equipment, I would expect 
     them to be EMP-hardened as a matter of course.  There is a U.S. 
     MilSpec for it, but I couldn't tell you what it is.<<
     
     That's okay.  The information you've given me is enough.  
     Realistically speaking, I don't think then that an EMP pulse would 
     ruin their weapons.  The weapons would be hardened since they were 
     created for military use at TL-16 on Vincennes.
     
     --Chris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:02:31 -0700
From: Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Radiation hardening
Message-ID: <fe986460@MailXFER.DMCWAVE.COM>

     >>Of course, the best time to let off a nuke is when someone's wearing 
     Battle
     Dress, and/or using a grav belt...
     "Aaaaaarrrgh...<crunch!>...err, anyone got a tin-opener?"
     
     Yes, it happened to me :-( <<
     
     Your ref must have a mean streak!
     
     --Chris
     

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 19:27 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 323
Message-ID: <memo.134899@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <199506210139.VAA12176@Ambassador.MPGN.COM>


  > From: Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen) To:
  > Subject: Refs:  What are your science fiction influences? Message-ID:
  >  
  > I've got a general question that I want to ask all you Traveller 
  > referees out there: 
  >  
  > What are your major influences from the realm of science fiction? 
  > Cite films, novels, games or whatever. 

_Star Wars_, _Star Trek_, and _Alien(s)_ (of course), Larry Niven, Lois
McMaster Bujold, _The Stainless Steel Rat_, and various others.

Actually, I tend to pinch ideas from all over the place, not just SF - as
an example, I've turned both _Candyman_ and _Appocalypse Now_ into
Traveller scenarios.

  > From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu> To:
  > Subject: Next Challenge 
  >  
  > Does anyone have any idea when Challenge #77 is coming out?  Is it
  > my idea or is it past due (or did it come out and I missed it)? 

I was wondering about that, too.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 16:04:04 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
To: xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: req: alternative combat systems
Message-ID: <199506222104.QAA28354@cummings.uchicago.edu>

A while back (like, November) someone posted an article about an 
alternate combat system which used target outlines and
transparencies with concentric cirles.

I found it looking through old digests.  I thought I had saved the
message, and the more I thought *about* it, the more I thought *of* 
it.

On a similar note; What alternate forms of resolving combat do people
use?  I find the CT system excellent, but not detailed enough, the MT
system just a tad overboard (but my preferred system) and the TNE
system hopelessly complicated for everyday play without having all
the weapon effects and characters' to hit chances all figured out in
advance on little 5" X 8" index cards...

Any ideas?

P.S. sorry, I know this is an oft-rehashed topic.  It is important enough to
bring up again every 6 months or so though.

Pete

----Insert smart-alek comment here----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 19:13:12 -0400
From: CyHiggin@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: REALLY Exotic Materials....
Message-ID: <950622191311_76346196@aol.com>

Michael Bailey (pd82495@wapol.gov.au):

>22      'Exotic Alloy II'        100              10    MCr0.250 (*)

>Only one example of this alloy has ever been found, in the form of a wrecked
>hulk orbiting the *LOCATION CENSORED* mainworld.  No form of probing or
>assay has ever been able to determine the composition of this material.
>Tough beyond belief, it's wrecked form is a testament to the titanic powers
>weildd by the Ancients.  Some scientists speculate that the material is not
>native to this universe.

I'm sorry, I wasn't going to do this, but HE TEMPTED ME!
---------8<----------------8< -------------------------------8<
--------------------------

             The Technology of Dr. E. E. Smith, for FF&S

    From the "Skylark" series:

    Vehicle and Craft Construction Materials

    TL  Type                Toughness   Mass    Price (MCr)
    -------------------------------------------------
    13+ Arenak              1000        6        ????
        Dagal               4000        4       ????
        Inoson              20,000      4        ????
        Faidon               ?          1        ????

    Arenak:  naturally transparent, "five hundred times as strong 
    and hard as the strongest and hardest steel".  Initially 
    molded into shape as a "stiff, plastic substance" that 
    hardens into a rocklike mass.  The rocklike stuff is soaked 
    in dilute solution of sodium chloride and an electrical 
    current is applied, which catalyzes the final transformation 
    into Arenak.  May be the same as "transparent aluminum" of 
    "Star Trek" fame.
     Source:  "The Skylark of Space", pp 132. Used by the 
    Osnomians for their vessels of war.

    Dagal: not described.  Harder and more refractory than 
    arenak, but nowhere near Inoson.  Consider it to be a light,
    bronze-colored metal; the Predator's weapons may have been 
    made of this stuff.
    Source: "Skylark Three".  Briefly mentioned; apparently used 
    by the Urvanians for their vessels of war.

    Inoson: a lightweight, sparkling, transparent purple metal. 
    "Thousands of times as strong and as hard as any possible 
    steel", it was the theoretical ultimate in strength and 
    toughness for matter.
    Source: "Skylark Three." Mentioned in many places.

    Faidon:  a gem, "deep blue, apparently but not actually 
    transparent, emitting a strong blue light.  It cannot be 
    worked, cut, ground or even scratched.  It will not burn or 
    change in any arc or flame, it doesn't change in liquid 
    helium."  Could only be worked in the heart of a white dwarf 
    star, under conditions similar to those of its formation.  
    (From the description, it was formed in supernova 
    explosions).  Described by Rovol of Norlamin as "almost pure 
    crystallized energy" or "crystallized ether", its substance 
    is a barrier to all Fourth Order (gravity, mesons) and lower 
    forces (heat, light, cosmic rays).  When worked, it was used 
    to contain white-hot neutronium, used as a lens for Fifth 
    Order (tachyons) forces and particles.  
    Source:  "The Skylark of Space", p 139; "Skylark Three" p 
    143.  


    Maneuver Drive, FTL Drive, Lifters

    TL  Description                 Th  Mass    Price   FC  FT
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    12  Seaton-Crane Drive          < Somebody wanna fill this table
        Fenachrone Drive              in for me? >
    17  Improved Seaton-Crane
 
    Power Plant

    TL  Description                 TW  Mass    Price   MinVol  Kl/Hour/TW
 Fuel Type





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
    12  X-Copper Converter          *   1       ????    0.001   0.000005
  Copper**
    17  X-Uranium Converter         *   4       ????    10      0.000002
  Uranium**

    The X powerplants did 100% total conversion of matter to 
    various forms of energy (kinetic, explosive, EM), aka the 
    "Seaton-Crane Effect".  

    * Power limited only by available fuel mass.  Any rate of 
    conversion from the few milliwatts needed for an object 
    compass up to the starkly incomprehensible power yielded by 
    disintegrating in miiliseconds multi-hundred tonne bars of 
    Uranium was possible.  Required volume per TW is fuel volume 
    * 1.2.

    ** plus sufficient X to plate the fuel bar -- 0.062 * v^(2/3), v = kl of
fuel.

    From the Lensmen series:

    Power Plant

    TL  Description                 TW      Mass    Price   MinVol
 Kl/Hour/TW  Fuel Type





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
    A1  Allotropic Iron Converter   1200    1.5     0.164   9.0     0.00002
    Allotropic Iron
    A2  Allotropic Iron Converter   360,000 3.0     49.05   0.03    0.00002
    Allotropic Iron
                                                                    0.1752
     Kl/Year/TW
    A1  Super-Atomic Motor          1200    1.5     0.164   9.0     0.000002
   Allotropic Iron*
    A2  Super-Atomic Motor          360,000 3.0     49.05   0.03    0.000002
   Allotropic Iron*
                                                                    0.0175
     Kl/Year/TW
        Cosmic Ray Absorption       143,875 0.6     0.00026 0.07    **as per
exciter

    TW: power in TERAwatts per kl of plant (that's 1,000,000 MW).
    Mass: in metric tonnes per kl.
    Price: in MCr - based on GURPS Space prices. Lensman prices are 1/10
list.
    Kl/Hour: Fuel consumption in kl/hour per TERAwatt.
    Kl/Year: Fuel consumption in kl/year per TERAwatt.
    TL: A1 - before superconductors; A2 - after superconductors

    *The Super-Atomic Motor can use any matter as fuel; just 
    calculate the volume of the equivalent mass of any other 
    fuel.  Allotropic Iron was typically used because it was easy 
    to make and very dense (with Inertialess drives, volume is a 
    bigger issue than mass).  

    ** Cosmic Ray Absorption screens require starting power equal 
    to 0.00001 times output power for 1 second; after that they 
    are self-sustaining.  Therefore, either accumulators or a 
    "small" auxiliary powerplant to provide input exciter startup
    power is required.

    In General:

    Accumulators - function as really high-end capacitors/HPGs.

    l/Tj    MinVol  Mass    Price
    --------------------------------
    .00002  750 l   .006    0.000026


    l/Tj: LITERS per TERAjoule.  1 Tj = 1,000,000 Mj.
    MinVol: in LITERS.
    Mass: tonnes per liter.
    Price: MCr per liter.

    New Fuels

    Type                    Mass    Price
    ------------------------------------
    Copper                  8.91    .001
    Uranium                 19      .010
    Allotropic Iron         19      ???
    X                       22      ???

    Allotropic Iron: a previously unknown fifth allotrope (form) 
    of Iron -- it was red, liquid at room temperature, and very 
    dense and made a useful fuel for Matter Conversion 
    powerplants.
    Source: "First Lensman" and "GURPS Lensman"

    X: a stable trans-uranic isotope that catalyzed the total 
    conversion of certain metals when exposed to certain 
    sub-atomic forces and electricity.  Rate of conversion is 
    proportional to the electrical current, so the reaction is 
    controllable.  Also known as "Rovolon" and the "Metal of 
    Power"; may be "dilithium" of Star Trek fame.

    Uranium: Raw or Depleted, whichever is cheapest. Need not be 
    fissionables, thus the lower price compared to "Radioactives"
    (aka fissionables such as U-235, Pu-239, and Th-233).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                     -- Cynthia


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 19:10:13 -0400
From: CyHiggin@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Arbitrary limitations
Message-ID: <950622191012_76346291@aol.com>

From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 
>> I haven't seen any 50*TL power output limit on Lasers in FF&S;
>> someone have a page / rule # citation?

>There isn't one.  It was a reasonable limitation that was developed on the
>gdw-beta list.  Without it there are no spinal mounts in the TNE universe.
Or
>any other weapons for that matter (not unless the designer is a complete
idiot).

Actually, it's an unrealistic, completely arbitrary limitation thrown in to
try to make
TNE look like Classic Trav.  There seems to be two schools of thought on the
TML:
one, represented by you and others, is that we should maintain consistancy
with
the Classic Imperium at all costs, and bend the rules to fit.   The other,
represented
by myself, Wildstar, and maybe George Herbert, is to go with the laws of the
universe
as represented by the FF&S design rules, and see what we come up with, **even
if 
 it doesn't look like Classic Trav**.  I also suscribe to the concept that,
if the FF&S
rules conflict with known reality, bend to fit reality -- i.e., we know what
performance
certain TL 6-8 technologies can produce, 'cause we see them in the Real World
(tm),
so if FF&S grossly underrates them, fix it.

Hey, if you like to that, fine -- it's your game. But--

If we are to hold meaningful discussions about ship/vehicle/widget designs,
please
clarify what rules you are using-- base FF&S, FF&S with your House Rules, my
House Rules, GURPS Space warp drives, or whatever.  The original thread was
about
the usefulness or lack thereof of BattleRiders -- the equation changes
somewhat
depending on whether you use base FF&S (big honker spinal mount lasers) or
your
House Rules (small turret- and bay-mount lasers only).  

As for my personal opinion: BattleRiders are very viable -- that damn jump
drive is very
dense, heavy and expensive, and we're using reaction drives now.  Dumping
every
unnecessary ton improves performance and endurance and combat capability.

                                                                  -- Cynthia


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 19:13:21 -0400
From: CyHiggin@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: HPGs
Message-ID: <950622191314_76346240@aol.com>

Brendan O'Donovan:

> 
>> c) HPGs are a silly idea anyway :-) I have not calculated just how fast a
>> HPG disc would need to be spinning in order to store some of the more
truly
> >massive amounts of energy in a rapidly firing high power weapon, but I
would
>> not be surprised if this came out at some stupidly high figure or lead to
>> such large rotational stress on the mounting to be impractical.

>You tell that to the HPGs. They _are_ actually a real world technology, 
>according to Challenge 71 they currently manage 4MJ per metric ton. This is
in 
>line with the TL8 figure for HPGs. Higher rates of spin would probably
become 
>possible as a magnetic suspension became practical, and don't forget,
kinetic 
>energy is determined by mass and velocity, and the really big HPGs have
plenty 
>of mass. 

Funny you should mention that...

Popular Science, July 1995, p.17: 
"Superfast Magnetic Bearings: Spinning at 36,000 rpm without any lubrication
or physical contact, a magnetically suspended turbine shaft established a
rotational
speed record for a jet-engine component that "floats". The magnetic-bearing
system
comprised of microprocessor-controlled electromagnets and sensors was built
by SatCon Technology Corp. of Cambridge, Mass. under an Army program to 
increase turbine-engine efficiency and durability. Further testing aims to
achieve
50,000 rpm."

I seem to recall quoting the same magazine a few months back about the work
U.of Texas is doing for the Army developing Mass Driver cannon -- I seem to
recall
also that said cannon will require a large flywheel HPG and a HIGH-EFFICIENCY
DIESEL TURBINE to charge it up... pieces of the same pie, perhaps?

                                       -- Cynthia

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 18:21:11 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Arbitrary limitations
Message-ID: <9506230021.AA04754@Rt66.com>

Howdy,

some comments on Cynthia's comments...
 
> From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
> >> I haven't seen any 50*TL power output limit on Lasers in FF&S;
> >> someone have a page / rule # citation?
> 
> >There isn't one.  It was a reasonable limitation that was developed on the
> >gdw-beta list.  Without it there are no spinal mounts in the TNE universe.
> Or
> >any other weapons for that matter (not unless the designer is a complete
> idiot).
>
> Cynthia says: 
> Actually, it's an unrealistic, completely arbitrary limitation thrown in to
> try to make
> TNE look like Classic Trav.

Well, it is the latter, but I would argue the former.  It is only "realistic"
if FFS is *right*.  We know in many cases FFS clashes with reality (as you say
below), and contradicts itself.  All the other non-real stuff (grav focusing,
etc. is arbitrary as well.  I assume that the goal of the FFS stuff was to fix
as much of the problems with know physics, and make what's left look as much]
like CT as possible (remember that the entire point of grav focusing (design 
notes in Challenge) was to make the lasers shoot as far as they wanted them to
for feel--not reality).

>  There seems to be two schools of thought on the TML:
> one, represented by you and others, is that we should maintain consistancy with
> the Classic Imperium at all costs, and bend the rules to fit.   The other,
> represented
> by myself, Wildstar, and maybe George Herbert, is to go with the laws of the
> universe
> as represented by the FF&S design rules, and see what we come up with, **even
> if 
>  it doesn't look like Classic Trav**.  I also suscribe to the concept that,
> if the FF&S
> rules conflict with known reality, bend to fit reality -- i.e., we know what
> performance
> certain TL 6-8 technologies can produce, 'cause we see them in the Real World
> (tm),
> so if FF&S grossly underrates them, fix it.

I don't say at all costs, but if possible, why not (it's a shame to throw all
the CT/MT background material away---and from all the TNE stuff I either own, or
have seen, they not only haven't thrown it away, they make up new eqipment that
looks like the CT stuff, but shouldn't given the new rules.  There is not a 
single published ship that makes any sense at all given the FFS rules.  Not one
(well, in BR, BL, SV, PoT, anyway).  

If we're gonna accept the grav focusing as real, then I have to ask if the MGs, 
and other PA weapons use it...  maybe it'd help make MGs useful (or PAWs).

I would only argue that the FFS "laws of the universe" are so out of whack with
reality that we might as well have arbitrary, fanciful rules that we're used to
instead of ones that are arbitrary, faniciful, and unfamiliar :)

> Hey, if you like to that, fine -- it's your game. But--
> If we are to hold meaningful discussions about ship/vehicle/widget designs,
> please
> clarify what rules you are using-- base FF&S, FF&S with your House Rules,
my
> House Rules, GURPS Space warp drives, or whatever.  The original thread was
> about
> the usefulness or lack thereof of BattleRiders -- the equation changes
> somewhat
> depending on whether you use base FF&S (big honker spinal mount lasers) or
> your
> House Rules (small turret- and bay-mount lasers only).  

I thought I did say  I was using the TL*50 house rule...

Also, when I post BR designs, they don't use any house rules (I've tried to
make
design rules that fit *inside* the FFS system) that matter (that is to say
that
if I limit laser size, all I've done is give the ship crappy lasers, but
they're
still within the rules.

> As for my personal opinion: BattleRiders are very viable -- that damn jump
> drive is very
> dense, heavy and expensive, and we're using reaction drives now.  Dumping
> every
> unnecessary ton improves performance and endurance and combat capability.

Expensive--yeah, but it's only a few % of the ship, and I consider my 
standard 50 gturn designs to be *far* under gturned if they don't have jump
fuel to dip into--so we end up using all that jump fuel as Mdrive fuel.  

They make more sense if they have *big* lasers (no need for them to be spinal
since I think the only difference is cost, and it's better to be able to
point)
because then you only need a ship big enough to field a few large lasers to
do
critical hits on anybody.  In fact I bet there is little reason to make ships
much bigger that 10-20,000 tons or so with BigLasers (tm) :)

In short, I don't mind BigLasers(tm), I just think that they're not
traveller.
If they're TNE, then someone should tell GDW :) (and TNE then is an alternate
universe traveller)

>
>                                                                   --
Cynthia

Trying to make the TNE world, and the rules that designed it
make *some* sense (to me, anyway),

		-Merrick


Ob design bash concept:

PAWs and MGs get grav focusing.  We work out the equivilent mass of the photons
in a laser pulse, and figure out what the grav would do for the "big guns" 
(maybe it's already been done in FFS (?)).

If not, then think about the arbitrary TL*50 limit.  To focus the laser we need
to manipulate a singularity (more or less).  What the the eqivilent mass of this
grav field produced thingy, and what is it held with?  (given the grav tech
is "real" in the traveller universe we need to follow that to where it takes
us to).

If we're making enough of a gravitational field to significantly bend light, 
what is the effect on the ship?  Or the FA of the laser? (really curious on 
these, actaully)  Do people out near the operational laser fall into the FA?
What about dust, etc (or sand from sandcasters)?

Also, how does this (or would it) affect the maneuver of the ship? The spinning
ship (as they all do, right?) has symetrical laser bays (*huge* ones--- 1000 
ton ones or so), and half of them get shot off... is this ship like a big off
balance centerfuge now?

Getting back to the TL*50 limit, why expect FA volumes to go up in a linear way
with DE?  The Real World (tm) rarely seems to be this way :)

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 325
***************************



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